BOom au bom ou mon pelerinage au bazaar..

[Rock-lee]

Bon, je t'attend de pied ferme!!!


On fera une feature table si tu vient au prochain. ^^

[despon]

Lol, pour que tout le monde voit que je ne sais plus joué à Magic!!!
Non merci :D

[Rock-lee]

T'aura qu'a jouer dragon, personne ne verra rien...  :twisted:

[Tobi]

Tested the deck this Wednesday in it's maindeck configuration against Tezz, Oath, HordenTendrils and GW Beatz. I have to say that this deck is incredibly fun to play, and very hard to play also.
I beat Oath even with Oath resolved, and had a very good match versus GW. Tezz was a bit unfavorable (probably due to awesome draws of the Tezz deck in the testing matches) and Tendrils was practically unwinnable.
Didn't test against Shops and Fish, and we also didn't sideboard.

However, a number of flaws became visible:
1 few artifacts for tinker
2 the deck needs Bazaar to run, without Bazaar you draw a number of dead cards
3 low blue card count for Force of Will
4 inability to deal with Sphinx of the Steel Wind
5 weakness against storm

Any ideas how to improve 1-3? 1+2 could be solved by adding an artifact land (cutting Barbarian Ring) and an additional Crop Rotation. Not sure what to remove for the Crop though.
Another way could be to add some more artifact mana (Sol Ring, Mox Jet, Mana Crypt) and play additional Intuitions.

How was Swords coming from the Side? Did you ever have problems finding white mana to cast it? I heard one player talking about a match of Serge Metz that he lost because he couldn't find white mana to cast Sword.

(can anyone translate, please?)  :)

[Watanabe]

Je m'essaye à une traduction pas forcément parfaite :

Tobi a testé le deck ce mercredi mais seulement le MD contre Tezz, Oath, Storm (Hordent Tendrill c'est quoi ? DT ?), et Zoo. Il trouve le jeu très fun à jouer et assez dur.
Il a défoncé Oath même si Oath était sur table, a eu un bon MU contre Zoo, un peu défavorable contre Tezz (apparement le Tezz a fait de grosses draw), et Tendrill est ingagnable.
Il a pas testé contre Shop ni Fish et il n'a jamais sidé.

Les faiblesses du deck :
1- Pas assez d'artos pour tinker
2- Le deck a absolument besoin de BoB, sinon t'as trop de cartes mortes
3- Pas assez de cartes U pour FoW
4- Gère pas Sphinge
5- Aucune chance contre Storm


T'as une idée pour améliorer les points 1 et 3 ? 1 et 2 peuvent etre amélioré de la même facon en ajoutant un land artos (en enlevant Barbarian) et en ajoutant Crop. Par contre il ne sait pas quoi remove pour rentrer crop.

Il voudrait ajouter d'autres artos et si possible au moins une autre intuition.


Il se demande comment StP est passé du side au MD ? T'as déjà eu des pb pour la caster ? Apparement Serge a perdu une manche parce qu'il n'a pas pu caster StP.

[Watanabe]

Tobi,

First, sorry for my english.
Then, I'll try to answer somme of your questions :
- I agree that the deck has a weakly MU against storm. Madness is too slow to run combo.
- About the weaknesses you've noticed :
   * Artifacts are not a real problem because you don't really want to cast tinker asap in the game, you want to control it and then cast it. So you got time to find the artifacts to sacrifice.
   * Yes, you have to get your BoB to beat your opponent. But I'm not really sure that Crop Rotation is a good include because you don't really want to sacrifice a land and get countered... As I've said, the deck is quite slow, so if you are countered this way, you will lost too much time in the game.
   * Barbarian ring is a kill in the deck, and a red source of mana. Not sure that you can cut it.



Trad approximative :
Tobi,

Désolé pour mon anglais.
Je vais essayer de répondre à certains points :
- Je suis d'accord pour dire que Madness a un mauvais MU contre combo, le deck est un poil trop lent.
- Concernant les faiblesses que tu as notées :
   * Les artos sont pas forcément un problème puisque tu ne veux pas jouer tinker le plus vite possible dans la game. L'objectif est d'abord de controler la game. Donc tu as le temps pour trouver ton artos.
   * Oui tu as vraiment besoin de BoB. Par contre, je pense pas que ce soit une raison pour ajouter Crop dans le deck, parce que si tu te fais contrer ta crop, et comme le deck est déjà assez lent, ca va être bien chaud pour revenir dans la game.
   * B-Ring a le role de source de mana R et est un kill. Je pense pas que l'on puisse le virer du paquet aussi facilement.

[Rock-lee]

Merci wata..

En fait, je comprend l'anglais (surtout écrit), c'est juste que j'ai peur de faire des grosses fautes si j'essaye d'expliquer direct en anglais.

I test against tezz and, in my test (30 games), it was 50/50 without side.. I don't test against storm because, in france, nobody play this..

I'm a little surpise because with 4 force, 4 logic, 2 pierce and 2 spell snare in MD with all mana denial (wast/strip, grudge), you can have a good match against storm.


Fish and shop is a good match with grim lavamancer and grudge.. barbarian is just incredible.

To side with madness is a little hard, you must test many things too find the realy good side against all deck.

I never had problem to find artefact for tinker because you can draw many cards and it's more easy to draw an artefact.


In Maindeck, to deal against sphinx you can play tinker ^^, or if you beat a little bit before, you can kill him with grim and barbarian, you have many counter to counter opponent tinker but it's like all deck, if a opponent cast tinker with back up (force/drain), nobody ca do anything... It's why swords is in side, against sphinx, golem, tarmo....

Crop is bad card against control.. i prefer to play only 1..


I know the match with serge against your friend, play ichorid, no ?

Serge have a problem, he draw with bazaar and he must do a choice, he have other things to keep and he discard a tundra... In all test i never had a problem to find a white mana because i have 1 mox diamond, 1 riftstone portal and 1 tundra with 3 fetch.

I prefer play grim lavamancer in Md because with grim i have a good match against selkie and all creature deck.

[Tobi]

Thanks for the translation and your comments Watanabe and Mickael.

Horden Tendrils is our team-version of storm combo. Basically it is GWSx with Forces instead of Duress. It plays 3 Tendrils and is very hard to stop with countermagic only. 4 Dark Confidant make it even harder.
The bad storm matchup should be adressed by adding permanent storm hate, like Canonist, to the side. However, not much storm is played atm, so it is probably not needed.

I know Barbarian Ring can be a win-condition, but I wonder if it is really needed. I frequently found myself wishing it was something else.
I wonder if the lone Crop Rotation is necessary. Since you have no tutors it is just a topdeck that is good sometimes and awful at other times.
If Crop Rotation is cut for lets say Intuition, then Barbarian Ring could go for a Sol Ring for example.

Another question I have is: are 4 Squees necessary? You never want more than 2 most of the time. Wouldn't it make more sense to reduce to 3 and instead play something to find Squees? Again, an additional Intuition (you notice I am a fan of the card  ;) ) could replace one Squee.
Same with the second LftL.

I definitely think this deck could use some more consistency. With a little more artifact mana and +1 or 2 Intuition it could be less dependant on topdecks and get it's draw engine online more frequently.

I know it is hard to tinker on a deck that one has build oneself. I have the same difficulties when discussing my storm build with others  ;)
Will test with more Intuitions next week and come back with results.

[CwaM]

I can't understand why you never want more than 2 squees while bazaar makes you discard 3  :?

[Watanabe]

I can't understand why you never want more than 2 squees while bazaar makes you discard 3  :?

Maybe because all waht Mickael said is based on : He has an active BoB on table.

That the main weakness i find in the deck : Without BoB, you're nothing.

I don't want to say that Madness is not a good deck, because in fact it is good. But BoB is just essential in the deck.

[Tobi]

I can't understand why you never want more than 2 squees while bazaar makes you discard 3  :?

Actually, having three Squee with Bazaar is ok, but many times you want to discard anything else anyways (Madness or Flashback stuff), and you will find yourself with excess lands in your hand you don't need, even more with LftL. Therefore, 2 Squees are enough when you have Bazaar online.
To be consequent I should try cutting to two Squees  :P
I only want to have four in my deck if I have no means of finding them besindes topdecking or dredging. With the configuration Mickael played you will run into Squees if you just use your Bazaar and Dredging LftL, but it is always a gamble.

[CwaM]

I just guess that you don't always (have to) madness something (circular or rootwalla)
Why would you discard a flashback when you can also play it form your hand?

Also, I guess (never played that deck), that Madness requires 4 squee because of the  early game.
You might indeed need 2 of them ASAP, so you can run your draw engine ASAP.

[Rock-lee]

You need to have 1 squee quickly.. and in mid game or end game i have always 2 bazaar of bagdad or more on the board for draw too many cards and have all the control of the game.


For me crop rotation is a realy good card who have one disadvantage, sac a land but in this deck, it's a tutor for all..

Draw engine, kill creature, mana denial (wast/strip)... and after side, bokuka bog.

[Tobi]

Alright. This brings me to the next question: how to sideboard
What do you usually side out? What is your plan against the major types of decks?

[Rock-lee]

I can't do this for all deck, too long...


Sorry  ;)


Just, i side out 1 squee against many deck because many deck side in tormod's/relique/leyline/extirpate etc... Like this, hate is strong less (ça se dit ? ^^).